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	<title>Comments on: On the irrelevance of &#8220;Balkinization&#8221; in particular and the legal profession in general</title>
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	<link>http://newsrackblog.com/2009/05/25/on-the-irrelevance-of-balkinization-in-particular-and-the-legal-profession-in-general/</link>
	<description>a citizen's journal by Thomas Nephew</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2012 00:13:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: newsrackblog.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Department of followups</title>
		<link>http://newsrackblog.com/2009/05/25/on-the-irrelevance-of-balkinization-in-particular-and-the-legal-profession-in-general/#comment-5538</link>
		<dc:creator>newsrackblog.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Department of followups</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 03:41:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newsrackblog.com/?p=2643#comment-5538</guid>
		<description>[...] On the irrelevance of &#8220;Balkinization&#8221; in particular and the legal profession in general [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] On the irrelevance of &#8220;Balkinization&#8221; in particular and the legal profession in general [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Nephew</title>
		<link>http://newsrackblog.com/2009/05/25/on-the-irrelevance-of-balkinization-in-particular-and-the-legal-profession-in-general/#comment-5432</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Nephew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:08:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newsrackblog.com/?p=2643#comment-5432</guid>
		<description>Apologies for the delay in approving your comment, Mick; I hadn't checked between last week and a few minutes ago.  --  I think the factor you identify (misplaced loyalty to a Dem in the White House) is important, and I might have done well to mention it more clearly.  

By appointing people like Marty Lederman and Dawn Johnsen to OLC, and then pursuing policies that seem the opposite of what they advocated (or appeared to advocate), Obama has, not entirely by accident, also at best silenced them and at worst co-opted them.  Johnsen is doubly under wraps in that she hasn't been confirmed yet -- in some ways as scandalous as Franken's continued absence in the Senate.  Obama has pulled out the stops for a "two inches and a cloud of dust" hair-splitter like Sotomayor, but there's been no news about Johnsen since mid-May.

That makes it all the more disappointing that the Balkinization crew -- especially Balkin himself, but also others -- haven't been on the ramparts about a developing executive branch consensus that appears to okay lawbreaking in the past and undermines rule of law in the future.  I can only suppose that's due to what you're talking about and some reluctance to appear to "call out" Lederman.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apologies for the delay in approving your comment, Mick; I hadn&#8217;t checked between last week and a few minutes ago.  &#8212;  I think the factor you identify (misplaced loyalty to a Dem in the White House) is important, and I might have done well to mention it more clearly.  </p>
<p>By appointing people like Marty Lederman and Dawn Johnsen to OLC, and then pursuing policies that seem the opposite of what they advocated (or appeared to advocate), Obama has, not entirely by accident, also at best silenced them and at worst co-opted them.  Johnsen is doubly under wraps in that she hasn&#8217;t been confirmed yet &#8212; in some ways as scandalous as Franken&#8217;s continued absence in the Senate.  Obama has pulled out the stops for a &#8220;two inches and a cloud of dust&#8221; hair-splitter like Sotomayor, but there&#8217;s been no news about Johnsen since mid-May.</p>
<p>That makes it all the more disappointing that the Balkinization crew &#8212; especially Balkin himself, but also others &#8212; haven&#8217;t been on the ramparts about a developing executive branch consensus that appears to okay lawbreaking in the past and undermines rule of law in the future.  I can only suppose that&#8217;s due to what you&#8217;re talking about and some reluctance to appear to &#8220;call out&#8221; Lederman.</p>
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		<title>By: mickarran</title>
		<link>http://newsrackblog.com/2009/05/25/on-the-irrelevance-of-balkinization-in-particular-and-the-legal-profession-in-general/#comment-5425</link>
		<dc:creator>mickarran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 21:12:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newsrackblog.com/?p=2643#comment-5425</guid>
		<description>Robert's comment is perceptive but not, I think, germane to the issue at hand. Lederman, Balkin, et al had no trouble distinguishing beetles from forests during the Bush Admin. Now that there's a Dem Prez and Lederman's in the Admin, they suddenly get lost in fine print? When &lt;i&gt;nothing whatever has changed?&lt;/i&gt; Because as Glenn Greenwald (a Constitutional lawyer by training)&lt;a href="http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/06/01/photos/index.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;has&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href="http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/05/21/obama/index.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;extensively&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href="http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/05/22/preventive_detention/index.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;documented&lt;/a&gt;, Obama's policies have not changed Bush's one whit. The normal Balkinization reaction should be outrage and the kind of fundamental legal discussion they specialized in with Bush. 

What's the difference? A Dem, that's the difference.

I think you nailed it Thomas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert&#8217;s comment is perceptive but not, I think, germane to the issue at hand. Lederman, Balkin, et al had no trouble distinguishing beetles from forests during the Bush Admin. Now that there&#8217;s a Dem Prez and Lederman&#8217;s in the Admin, they suddenly get lost in fine print? When <i>nothing whatever has changed?</i> Because as Glenn Greenwald (a Constitutional lawyer by training)<a href="http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/06/01/photos/index.html" rel="nofollow">has</a> <a href="http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/05/21/obama/index.html" rel="nofollow">extensively</a> <a href="http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/05/22/preventive_detention/index.html" rel="nofollow">documented</a>, Obama&#8217;s policies have not changed Bush&#8217;s one whit. The normal Balkinization reaction should be outrage and the kind of fundamental legal discussion they specialized in with Bush. </p>
<p>What&#8217;s the difference? A Dem, that&#8217;s the difference.</p>
<p>I think you nailed it Thomas.</p>
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		<title>By: Nell</title>
		<link>http://newsrackblog.com/2009/05/25/on-the-irrelevance-of-balkinization-in-particular-and-the-legal-profession-in-general/#comment-5399</link>
		<dc:creator>Nell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 23:20:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newsrackblog.com/?p=2643#comment-5399</guid>
		<description>True, EW's weedy, and the comments can be a gigantic time sink.

Unless someone else steps up, Greenwald is probably going to be the best resource if and when Obama comes out with a concrete proposal for detaining without trial.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True, EW&#8217;s weedy, and the comments can be a gigantic time sink.</p>
<p>Unless someone else steps up, Greenwald is probably going to be the best resource if and when Obama comes out with a concrete proposal for detaining without trial.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Nephew</title>
		<link>http://newsrackblog.com/2009/05/25/on-the-irrelevance-of-balkinization-in-particular-and-the-legal-profession-in-general/#comment-5398</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Nephew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 18:45:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newsrackblog.com/?p=2643#comment-5398</guid>
		<description>@Robert: Whew.  I felt kind of bad about this post after publishing it, I painted with a bit of a broad brush.  Yes, that's exactly right, I think: missing the forest for the (beetles on the bark of) trees.

@Nell:
&lt;i&gt;sorry&lt;/i&gt;: Not a problem -- I'll fix the code so the italics end at "office", if that's OK; &lt;i&gt;De Palma&lt;/i&gt;: can one selectively ban a single commenter with the blogspot comment system?  &lt;i&gt;In the Pakistani case, the lawyers are an important constituency of the long-suppressed secular, democratizing political parties&lt;/i&gt;: Well, maybe we'll catch up with them in fifteen or twenty years -- long-suppressed, democratizing, etc.

Thanks for the emptywheel/bmaz pointer.  Guess I'll go there more often.  Wheeler tends to get immersed in the case details down in the weeds, which can be good of course, but is also difficult to get a big picture with -- or to follow if you haven't been there in the weeds too from the start.

PS: thanks for the shout-out about my Obama-Cheney post in your &lt;a href="http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2009/05/the-contrast.html?cid=6a00d834515c2369e201156fac1389970c#comment-6a00d834515c2369e201156fac1389970c" rel="nofollow"&gt;comment&lt;/a&gt; at Obsidian Wings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Robert: Whew.  I felt kind of bad about this post after publishing it, I painted with a bit of a broad brush.  Yes, that&#8217;s exactly right, I think: missing the forest for the (beetles on the bark of) trees.</p>
<p>@Nell:<br />
<i>sorry</i>: Not a problem &#8212; I&#8217;ll fix the code so the italics end at &#8220;office&#8221;, if that&#8217;s OK; <i>De Palma</i>: can one selectively ban a single commenter with the blogspot comment system?  <i>In the Pakistani case, the lawyers are an important constituency of the long-suppressed secular, democratizing political parties</i>: Well, maybe we&#8217;ll catch up with them in fifteen or twenty years &#8212; long-suppressed, democratizing, etc.</p>
<p>Thanks for the emptywheel/bmaz pointer.  Guess I&#8217;ll go there more often.  Wheeler tends to get immersed in the case details down in the weeds, which can be good of course, but is also difficult to get a big picture with &#8212; or to follow if you haven&#8217;t been there in the weeds too from the start.</p>
<p>PS: thanks for the shout-out about my Obama-Cheney post in your <a href="http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2009/05/the-contrast.html?cid=6a00d834515c2369e201156fac1389970c#comment-6a00d834515c2369e201156fac1389970c" rel="nofollow">comment</a> at Obsidian Wings.</p>
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		<title>By: Nell</title>
		<link>http://newsrackblog.com/2009/05/25/on-the-irrelevance-of-balkinization-in-particular-and-the-legal-profession-in-general/#comment-5397</link>
		<dc:creator>Nell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 18:02:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newsrackblog.com/?p=2643#comment-5397</guid>
		<description>&lt;/i&gt;Sorry, sorry, sorry.

I should have previewed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, sorry, sorry.</p>
<p>I should have previewed.</p>
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		<title>By: Nell</title>
		<link>http://newsrackblog.com/2009/05/25/on-the-irrelevance-of-balkinization-in-particular-and-the-legal-profession-in-general/#comment-5396</link>
		<dc:creator>Nell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 18:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newsrackblog.com/?p=2643#comment-5396</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;And yet the tens of thousands of highly trained lawyers in this country do not rise up and object to that.  In Pakistan — Pakistan, for crying out loud –  lawyers literally took to the streets and battled police when General Pervez Musharraf sacked a Supreme Court justice there.  They literally impeached Musharraf and forced him out of office.&lt;/i&gt;

It's often overlooked and perhaps not widely known, but the exact issue over which the lawyers rose up was the participation of Pakistani security services in seizing people, holding them secretly, and torturing them.

In the Pakistani case, the lawyers are an important constituency of the long-suppressed secular, democratizing political parties.  Here, the liberal lawyers appear to believe that things will be fine because their "team" is in office.  

What's mystifying is why they of all people don't seem concerned about what a future administration can and will do with the Constitution-corrupting framework Obama appears to want to preserve and extend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>And yet the tens of thousands of highly trained lawyers in this country do not rise up and object to that.  In Pakistan — Pakistan, for crying out loud –  lawyers literally took to the streets and battled police when General Pervez Musharraf sacked a Supreme Court justice there.  They literally impeached Musharraf and forced him out of office.</i></p>
<p>It&#8217;s often overlooked and perhaps not widely known, but the exact issue over which the lawyers rose up was the participation of Pakistani security services in seizing people, holding them secretly, and torturing them.</p>
<p>In the Pakistani case, the lawyers are an important constituency of the long-suppressed secular, democratizing political parties.  Here, the liberal lawyers appear to believe that things will be fine because their &#8220;team&#8221; is in office.  </p>
<p>What&#8217;s mystifying is why they of all people don&#8217;t seem concerned about what a future administration can and will do with the Constitution-corrupting framework Obama appears to want to preserve and extend.</p>
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		<title>By: Nell</title>
		<link>http://newsrackblog.com/2009/05/25/on-the-irrelevance-of-balkinization-in-particular-and-the-legal-profession-in-general/#comment-5394</link>
		<dc:creator>Nell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 17:51:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newsrackblog.com/?p=2643#comment-5394</guid>
		<description>I quit reading comments there a long time ago because of Bart DePalma (well, really because other commenters, in particular Arne Langetsmo, wouldn't ignore him).  Rather than closing comments, they could just ban Bart, given his long, long run.  

On the other hand, I haven't even checked in since a few weeks after Marty Lederman left, when the tendency  was already in evidence for every other poster than Brian Tamahana.

It's too bad, because we could use some more lawyer bloggers explaining things to us NALs.  Bmaz at Emptywheel can be helpful that way at times. You don't have to wait for a relevant post, just ask a question (with 'OT' at the beginning) in the very active EW comments and he or one of the other lawyer commenters will often get around to it or point you in a helpful direction.

SCOTUSblog has also been a lifesaver, but for obvious reasons are not a resource for things happening below the SC level.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I quit reading comments there a long time ago because of Bart DePalma (well, really because other commenters, in particular Arne Langetsmo, wouldn&#8217;t ignore him).  Rather than closing comments, they could just ban Bart, given his long, long run.  </p>
<p>On the other hand, I haven&#8217;t even checked in since a few weeks after Marty Lederman left, when the tendency  was already in evidence for every other poster than Brian Tamahana.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s too bad, because we could use some more lawyer bloggers explaining things to us NALs.  Bmaz at Emptywheel can be helpful that way at times. You don&#8217;t have to wait for a relevant post, just ask a question (with &#8216;OT&#8217; at the beginning) in the very active EW comments and he or one of the other lawyer commenters will often get around to it or point you in a helpful direction.</p>
<p>SCOTUSblog has also been a lifesaver, but for obvious reasons are not a resource for things happening below the SC level.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Nephew</title>
		<link>http://newsrackblog.com/2009/05/25/on-the-irrelevance-of-balkinization-in-particular-and-the-legal-profession-in-general/#comment-5385</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Nephew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 17:09:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newsrackblog.com/?p=2643#comment-5385</guid>
		<description>I have kind of the same reaction.  I think by training, most lawyers don't worry about the forest; they are more focused on a beetle on the bark of a tree.  Lawyers get a rush of adrenaline by finding an exception to the exception to the exception to the rule from some obscure case from 100 years ago.  And don't even get me started on judges.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have kind of the same reaction.  I think by training, most lawyers don&#8217;t worry about the forest; they are more focused on a beetle on the bark of a tree.  Lawyers get a rush of adrenaline by finding an exception to the exception to the exception to the rule from some obscure case from 100 years ago.  And don&#8217;t even get me started on judges.</p>
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